EP21 – How to find your first client plus helping your child to sleep with guest Jade Zammit

So today I’m going to be talking about finding clients first and then later on, my guest today is Jade Zammit who’s a sleep nanny. We’re going to be talking about helping your child to sleep well.

First, let’s talk about finding clients. The famous Gary V suggested that the best way to get your first 10 clients or any client for that matter was to ask them if they wanted your service.

Do you agree?

I think there’s often a reticence to ask people if they want to buy a service, but if you believe in it and the change that you can cause in their lives, why wouldn’t you want to ask them if they wanted to buy?

Before you make your calls, talk at an event or join a networking, write down what you do and for whom. Compare these two statements.

I provide cognitive behavioral therapy coaching therapy for women.


I helped five women overcome their fear of networking events so they can build their businesses.

See the difference? Try it out and let me know how you get on.

Next I’m going to be talking to Jade Zammit. Jade is an infant and child sleep consultant [00:02:00] at Beyond the Stars and she is based in Edinburgh.

Good morning. Good morning. Good morning, everybody. So today I’m talking to Jade Zammit who is a sleep nanny and who has a Facebook page called Beyond the Stars, which we’re going to talk about how that came about, and basically she’s an an infant and child sleep consultant. So hello, how are you?

Jade Zammit: Hi. I’m good thanks. How are you?

Annette Clubley: Good, good. Thank you so much for coming onto the show today. So yeah. Tell me a bit about how you came up with that name, the, the beyond the stars name and how you got started as a sleep nanny?

Jade Zammit: Okay. So the name I had several, several brainstorms when it came to sort of the site and what, what kinds of brands that I want to go down and how I wanted to incorporate my [00:03:00] own children in there. And my eldest, my son, he was never much into all the [inaudible] by any stretch. But the one song for years that he always wanted me to sing to him was beyond the sea. He loves to find any [inaudible] catchy. And I wanted to incorporate that and with the hierarchs are efficient at going and stars obviously has those connotations with night’s sleep, but more that sort of reaching for more, you know that more ‘reach for the stars’.

And I brought those in together. That’s sort of that, so it went from there. And that was one of my last of tasks to be honest, when I decided to do this. I started to do this for several reasons.

Reflux & sleep difficulty in babies

My youngest, my daughter, she had severe reflux as a baby, severe reflux. And so did my nephew, albeit not quite as severe, as my daughter’s, but I, I knew some things about reflux and it was a sleep professional who actually had helped my sister with lots of advice, over diet and several [00:04:00] things as to how reflux can impact sleep. So I already had a bit of an idea how to sort of help her and make sure that she was as comfortable as possible, that it wasn’t disturbing her sleep and if that sleep professional hadn’t helped our family, our two children would have been in so much pain for so much longer.

And it just made me realize how these little bits of golden nugget information really transformed all our lives and I wanted to be able to go and do the same for other people. And her sleep just about broke me. She, she was completely different from my son. But, having said that, when my eldest, when he was born.. My husband works away, so it was very much just me at home. And I think the world of sleep, not became an obsession, but I threw myself in it. So many different baby books. I threw myself into the deep depths of the internet. I loved hearing about the psychology of baby sleep. And I think that’s where that interest really started. [00:05:00] And sort of how I could make sure he was getting as much rest and he was such a happy contented little thing, you know, cause he was getting so much good sleep.

Every baby is different

And when I knew, I thought I knew a thing or two about sleep, my daughter came along and changed everything, changed everything. She was completely different and the sleep deprivation is so, so hard to deal with. And as much as I think, as parents, we sort of expect it at the beginning, but then it goes on for a longer period of time, our bodies can only take so much of that.

My husband turned around and said, I think we should seek help from a sleep professional, try and get some more advice. And I said, you know what, I’m going to do one better. I’m going to put myself through qualifications and I want to make sure that I can help other families not to have to feel like this. And that’s what I did. So I put myself through intensive study um, of course, these qualifications and decided to, yeah, start my own consultancy.

Annette Clubley: Wow. Wow. Yeah. It’s nothing like [00:06:00] having a baby who just doesn’t sleep to make you feel terrible on a daily basis. And you know, I mean, if your husband’s working and way and you are managing the ship by yourself. It’s, it’s and same if you’re a single parent, you know, it’s really, really difficult to keep going. Also if you’re a working parent and you’ve got to get up and you’ve got to go to work and you’re just feel terrible on a daily basis and you just, yeah. Yeah. There’s nothing like it to make you start feeling bad about yourself and start second guessing yourself about, you know, how well you’re doing in terms of as a parent. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it’s, you know, it’s really common, really common.

Baby & child sleep issues are common

Jade Zammit: So common and one in four children have some sort of sleep challenges at some point in their little lives, in the earlier years. And I think this is also why I do what I do in specific ways. Like I said one in four children have some sort of [00:07:00] sleep challenges so it’s really common for to parents to seek out help or for medicated unnecessarily. You know, the majority of children can be medicated with melatonin supplements, and all this to help them sleep through.

And 99% of the time, it’s not necessary. And I will have, these sleep challenges can be solved by simple tweaks, you know behavioral changes that mean we don’t need that need for, for medication. So what I do looks at infant and child sleep, at a very holistic approach. So I take into consideration everything. And when I do assessments with families, we go through the whole family dynamics, you know, settle approaches, wake times, everything that could be impacting their sleep as well as diet. Cause again, I know how important that was for my daughter, with diet and her reflux and how that could impact her sleep. And we take everything into consideration. It’s not… I think people have this [00:08:00] conception of sleep consultants of the, they have an approach and they’re just the ones who preach it and you know, and that’s just, it’s not the case, especially for me.

So I’ve never implement the same plan twice, ever, every child is so very different. So I look into the personalities or temperaments because when you find something that suits that particular child, it’s more likely to stick, it’s more likely to work. And again, they’re very, very gentle solutions. So there there’s as very little upset as we can possibly make it, but you’re also spoken that to that particular child so they’re much more adapting to it. You’re not doing something that they’re little temperament, just couldn’t deal with because you’ve incorporated that in.

I know with my son, I had certain routines that I’d read out of baby books and there’s, there’s like something like 8 million baby sleep books out there. How do you know which one works for your baby? And I’m like, how many do you have to go through? It’s it’s insane. I [00:09:00] still have that book for my daughter was born. I thought, great do you know, this worked really well for him. These sort of routines. And I tried them with her and she’s a completely different baby. She had completely different sleep needs and it ruined her sleep even more, does not work for her and do you know all these differences between them. I find it fascinating that psychology with kids and the differences. And that was a big thing for me is I thought, do you know what, there is not one size fits all and I very much preach that, do you know. I can only put out so much advice and stuff on social media, you know, not one size is going to fit everybody, but I think it’s important that we, we really look at the little one and find the best solution.

Annette Clubley: Yes. Yes. And be consistent. I should imagine, you know, being consistent about it is quite a big thing. I think, because certainly that, you know, for me, that routine of winding them down and, you know, get knowing so that they knew what was coming next was really important. I love the idea of personalities [00:10:00] because, you know, you think that your baby not sleeping is a first baby thing and that, you know, if you’ve done well with the first baby, it’s going to be fine with the second, but often they’re completely different.

And sometimes, you know, so sometimes it’s your first baby, that’s the nightmare. And sometimes it’s your second baby that just never sleeps through. And the reflux is really interesting because of course, you only have to think of yourself, if you’ve ever had really bad heartburn.

Jade Zammit: Yeah.

Annette Clubley: ..And tried sleeping with it. It’s really uncomfortable. So, you know, you can imagine what it must be like for a baby when they can’t actually say what it is that’s bothering them.

Types of reflux in babies

Jade Zammit: Absolutely. And I think with the reflux, especially, with a lot of parents that I’ve worked with, I think, where you’ve got your two different kinds of reflux, you’ve got your silent reflux, do you know where the acid is coming out, but there’s nothing visible. That reflux discomfort. And then you’ve got do you know much more gestational reflux and you see that. There’s visual [00:11:00] vomiting, do you know, and as much as there can be medication and things to help, I think there’s this conception that once they stop being sick, do you know when you get to that level, but that’s reflux stopped and it’s not for many cases, I mean, there’s reasons such as tongue ties and several reasons for, for reflux. But I know in our particular case, and it is related to their digestive system as much as they start to mature enough that, you know, the sickness stops and it is more so once they start on solids and that kind of thing, but the acid in their tummies and that valve that keeps the acid in there, doesn’t develop for some time yet with these babies. And that’s why it happens at the first place. And it turns out baby’s digestive systems aren’t actually matured until over two. So it could be two and a half before baby’s digestive systems completely matured.

I know now that if she eats too many tomato meals in a day that disturbs her sleep because that acid is still finding its way with the acidic foods. And I think that’s one thing that with [00:12:00] reflux, as soon as the sickness stops, people go ‘great she’s cured’. And it’s not the case. There’s still so much going on in their little tummies that can help, just like they can just start with their sleep. So yeah. I threw myself in a lot of reflux studies once I got qualified to try and help other parents cause reflux it’s it’s, it’s hard. It’s not easy.

Annette Clubley: Yes. Yes. And sometimes it’s the parents, you know, as you say, if you, if you you’re tired and stressed, then your baby picks up on that straight away, don’t they?

How to cope with a baby that doesn’t sleep

Jade Zammit: Yes. Yes, yes. Very much so. I do a lot of sort of mindset and coaching with parents as I, as I work with them. I bring things just like that. If as a parent, I think we’ve all been in that situation do you know with newborns where we’re trying so hard to settle our baby, and we’re walking around, and they’re just not settling. And then somebody walks in and you go, please take them for a second. And they [00:13:00] instantly calm. And the reason being is because we are so worked up that they feel that, and then whoever we’ve passed them on to, it’s not because they prefer them over you, it’s because they’re calm and they go, okay, now I can calm, you know?

So yes, very, very much so, but there is nothing like a baby fighting sleep that can stress a parent out beyond belief. There’s nothing that brings more frustration to parent than that fight when you know, they need sleep and they are just not having it, whether it be a tiny baby or a toddler who’s procrastinating sleep And it can be hard on you when you’re already sleep deprived, it does take an impact on our mental health and it takes an impact on our mindset because we start to self doubt. We believe that nothing’s going to work. So I do a lot of that as well because it’s hard to see the bigger picture when you’ve lived with it for so long, when you’ve lived in sleep deprivation for so long, this do you know nothing’s changed for a while you can’t see how things will be on the other side. So, do you know, it’s easy to have that defeatist attitude of nothing, [00:14:00] nothing’s going to work here. And I see that all the time. And then when patients come out to the other side and they go, I never ever dreamt in a million years that they would have slept, is an amazing feeling.

And that’s, that’s what I do it for. It’s I want to do it for the little ones because do you know that consolidated sleep, they need it for their growth hormones. That’s all the deep sleep. And if they’re not sleeping deeply, and they need those growth hormones and for their development, their contentedness, but it is seeing the impact on the families, do you know and how much happier the parents are, how rested the parents are, because they need that as well to be the best that they want to be. So it’s in the fuller picture that makes it so worthwhile..

Annette Clubley: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And you know what I mean? And then you have a better relationship with your baby because you’re not so stressed out and you’re not so tired and that’s, you know, as well as the impact on yourself and your mental health. So if, [00:15:00] if the babies are… babies and children are so individual, do you only work with people one-to-one?

Getting help to help your child sleep

Jade Zammit: Yes, mostly. So social media is one thing where I’ll put very helpful general advice out there, but I work with people on a one to one basis. Obviously given Covid the last couple of years, it’s been very much online. I don’t, do house visits. I’ve been asked several times that, you know, if you do like, and have stays and things, but I don’t see the value in that for several reasons, because I think the parents need to learn their way and many babies, aren’t going to be that receptive to a stranger coming in regardless. So I it’s all online. I do zoom calls and consultations, fairly lengthy consultations, checkup calls. So that do you know, I’m speaking with the families every couple of days to know how can I support and it’s much more than a one to one basis for, for that extra support. I will do Q and A’s and general questions, and then [00:16:00] we’ll try and help the best I can and workshops and that sort of stuff. But as a, as a general rule, it’s very much more one to one.

Annette Clubley: Okay.

Jade Zammit: More bespoke.

Annette Clubley: Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because in a workshop you can only say what generally works across all children and you can’t talk about a specific child and you know, it might not work for a specific child. They might, and it might be an underlying problem, like the reflux or something like that as well.

Jade Zammit: Exactly.

Annette Clubley: Okay. So that totally makes sense. And because it’s, you know, because it’s online nowadays, you can work with anybody anywhere can’t you?

Jade Zammit: Absolutely.

Annette Clubley: Yeah. Yeah. Makes a big difference. Do you find that parents know in their gut, what’s stopping it from happening?

Parents know best

Jade Zammit: That’s really interesting actually. Because I think that they do in a sense. They’ll come and they’ll say, you know, my well one’s so over tired, do you know, that they’re fighting sleep because they’ll have done a bit of research a lot of parents on their [00:17:00] own, do you know, why is this and why, you know, what should their naps be like? Or, you know, these sort of things, or they have an idea of where they want to go with it and we will look at, like I say, everything holistically Some parents are quite open and go, it’s me. I can’t bring in the changes. I’m really struggling to be consistent.

You know so we’ve worked with that and a lot of parents are pretty open, you know, it’s to sort of where they want to go, but I think when they are very open to advice and they just take that advice and run with it are the best successes that we get.

Annette Clubley: Yes. Yes. Well, I think you’ve touched on it. In the end, the bottom line is the parent has got to implement changes because going forwards, they’re going to have to continue it basically and be consistent with it going forward. So in the end, they’re going to have to make those changes themselves. And I guess, would guess if they’re willing to do it, the change will happen quicker.

Jade Zammit: Oh yeah.

Annette Clubley: Yeah, [00:18:00] yeah.

Jade Zammit: Absolutely. And it, and it’s great seeing sort of families come together as well, because quite often dad gets more involved than mum or mum gets more involved. Whoever might not always do the bedtime routine comes in and helps. And d’you know, and it’s nice to see, do you know, parents taking a really nice approach together, implementing, which is nice.

Also, that’s not always the case, but.. And I think the celebration that families have when they come to the end is, is wonderful to see really, really great to be. So yes, things are very much more bespoke, and much more catered to that child, but there is, I would say three big things, if I’m going to give some sort of tips on this.

Children who are overtired

The three main things I think I work with are probably over tiredness, over tiredness, 99% of clients I’ve had there’s overtiredness present. And I think overtiredness is so against our parental instincts as I can watch things with our baby slip up, I feel and it’s really easy to [00:19:00] build overtiredness. So if their wake windows are too pushed beyond how long they should be awake, age appropriately. Bedtime’s too late. If they’ve been early rise and for a long period of time, I talk about their sleep as almost like a sleep tank. And so when they’re over tired for a period of time, that sleep depletes completely, that tank. And so with overtiredness, that’s my biggest tip is that it’s to work that sleep time back up, because that will help the night awakenings, that will help the early rising. And I think it’s really common for parents to go do you know, they’re not sleeping all night so we’ll put them to bed later. And often 99% of the time will make it drastically worse. And then they are more overtired, there’s more wakenings, there’s more early rising and sleep really does breed sleep.

So if overtiredness is present I would say right early naps, super-early bed times, anything up to an hour before won’t affect the time that they’re waking up, then make that topup of sleep. And yeah, I would say [00:20:00] overtiredness is probably present in, yeah, 99% of…

Annette Clubley: Yeah, yeah it’s interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Cause it’s the exact opposite of what most parents think to do.

Jade Zammit: Exactly. And again it’s more, this goes against our instinct to go, well, they don’t seem really tired yet.. Why am I going to put them for a nap? But as soon as you start seeing those tired signs of rubbing eyes, yawning, you have got very, very, very short space of time to have them asleep before they’re overtired and it kicks in.

And whether that is just that they’re too pushed or full over tiredness kicks in where the cortisol just starts running through their brains. And then it’s like, I’m not tired anymore, do you know, because they’ve then got that second wind, do you know. We get that as adults, you know, where we are so tired and we get that second wind again, so it can show in different ways.

So it can be a bit against what we we feel to do, but it makes a huge, huge difference. So very much recommend it as well because a lot of kids are very good at masking the need for sleep, and they’ll just keep fighting to the bitter end, [00:21:00] you know, by which time they’re so over tired and it’s even worse. And so over time, this is probably one of the biggest things I talk about pretty much.

Annette Clubley: Yes. Yes. Well, that’s really interesting. Yeah. Yeah. You get that little laugh don’t you? That it’s almost hysterical laugh and you think, oh yes, somebody’s actually really, really tired. And the, so their emotions are heightened, I think at that point.

And they’re just, everything’s super funny. And then all of a sudden, it’s super disastrous and, you know they’re crying buckets of tears and you know that they, they actually should have gone to bed. Yeah.

That’s okay.

So if I’m a parent and I’m desperate for some sleep, what is the best way for me to find you? Where’s the best place for me to get in touch with you?

Jade Zammit: I normally get most of mine through either the Facebook page, my email, the [00:22:00] website has my email, has the option to book an, do you know, an initial call with me on the website and you can pick your times there, but if other times, so drop me an email. Most come through email or Facebook and occasionally Instagram.

Annette Clubley: Okay.

Jade Zammit: But I find that my social media isn’t always too present because I’m so busy working with families, I find that the social media sites tend to close by the wayside. So normally emails, website, Facebook page. And what I do from there is that we have an initial chat where we sort of talk it through, get an idea of what’s going on. And then I sent these sort of assessment forms so that I can get as much detail as I possibly can, then I go away and figure out what the do you know, an ideal sort of plan. And then upon our consultation we chat it through, and we make tweaks, it’s not like it’s set in stone because I like tell us about the little one’s responses as we go as well. And I think once you get that consultation, you find out even more do you know about the family since then. And then we take it from there and yeah.

Make the magic [00:23:00] happen.

Annette Clubley: Make the magic happen. Yes. Sleeping through. That’s definitely magic. Definitely. For any parent.

Jade Zammit: It really, really is. There’s, you can’t do much better than a full night’s sleep. You know, everyone feels that much more rested as do the little ones. It’s amazing how many parents that come say so much happier because they’re sleeping more, their temperaments, like they’re so happy in the day.

They’re not grumpy and you know, they’re full of energy and it’s nice to see. And I think the parents love seeing that, do you know, how much more contented they are in the day? How much more contented they are at night? Cause that’s what we want. We want them to be contented and happy when they go to sleep, we want them content and happy through the day and that’s the dream.

Annette Clubley: Yes, that is the dream. Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, it’s every parents, it’s every parent’s ambition, isn’t it to make sure that their children are happy. And I think we often look at [00:24:00] sleep issues as a problem for us but it’s as much of a problem for them, for the baby.

Jade Zammit: Oh, yeah. Absolutely.

Annette Clubley: Yeah, yeah. And the difference between, you know, before and after is amazing.

Jade Zammit: Oh yeah.

Annette Clubley: When it’s all going well and everybody’s sleeping well, and you know, it’s…

Why getting enough sleep is important for children’s growth

Jade Zammit: Your appetite is better because they’re not so retired to know, like I say, those growth hormones are so important. You see those changes in their development. I feel much quicker, do you know, it’s in that deep sleep, even as adults where the brain sort of detoxes the stuff we don’t really need to know, that keeps the… Files away the stuff that we do need to know. And it’s really important those early stages. There’s studies that show show the growth hormones that we need do you know deeper parts of sleep. Even as little as 10 months, if babies are not getting consolidated sleep, they can see those percentiles in 10 month old babies, which actually start to carry on until adulthood with poor sleep throughout childhood.

So [00:25:00] it’s those sort of statistics that just show how important that consolidated deep sleep has for them and their growth, and yeah, as they grow and develop. So..

Annette Clubley: Super interesting. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The science behind it. Okay. So what I will do is drop links into the blog post so that people can come and find you with your website and also with the Facebook page. And thank you very, very much for taking the time to talk to me today.

Jade Zammit: Thank you for all of this and the opportunity to, to come and talk. I love chatting about what I do so thank you. Thank you so much.

Annette Clubley: No problem at all. Thanks.[00:26:00]

Contact Jade on Facebook or her website Beyond the Stars